Speaker 0 00:00:05 Hi, everyone. Welcome to identity crisis. The show about news and ideas from the Shalom Hartman Institute. I'm you hit occurred. Kurtzer president of shell Hartman Institute North America, and we're recording on December 30th, 2020, really, really excited to be talking with truly one of my favorite conversation partners in the whole world and my colleague and friend Dr. Mika Goodman in Israel. Some of you have studied with the Hartman Institute, know that one of the highlights of Hartman summer every year, at least for me, is on Shabbat afternoon during the late leader program, getting to do a one-on-one conversation with Mika. I've learned enormous amount from those conversations about Israeli society, about American Jews, about Israel, diaspora, about technology, all of which we'll talk about today. And what's delightful about those conversations. Unlike perhaps this one is that since they take place on Shabbat, we don't record them.
Speaker 0 00:00:50 And so they only live on in our memory, but this one we're going to record and is a podcast for the world. And there's so many things to talk about with me today, but the prompt is the recent release of <inaudible> newest book in English. Uh, the book is called the wandering Jew Israel and the search for Jewish identity out from Yale university press. It was out a while back earlier in Hebrew, and now is actually available to the American audience. First of all, Mika, thanks so much for taking a little time to talk on the show today. So I don't love when people do book talk events and you actually summarize the whole book because then it tells people that don't have to read it. So I want people to go out and read and buy the book, but I'll start with like a lighter question, which is just a little bit about you and why this book, you know, in your trajectory as an intellectual, you did three big books on Jewish thought that were kind of great books, projects.
Speaker 0 00:01:39 You did a book on Deuteronomy. You did a book on my monities. You did a book on Halevi. I'm sorry if I got those out of order. And then you shifted your focus with the last two books, one to the politics of Israeli society with catch 67 and then the second to this story of Israeli Jewish identity today. And they are very much companion books. We'll talk about that more, but tell me what's going on with that story for you, the journey from great books to this in terms of your own field division of what's interesting to you. Yes.
Speaker 1 00:02:06 So I thought that what my role is in life is to write books, not books. So I wrote a book about moving to McQueen the guy for the perplexed. Actually, I thought that would be the only book I ever read, but for some reason, people were actually reading my book about millennial cream. And I thought that doesn't tell the entire story because the guy for the perplexed is the best of Judaism. It's only a part of Judaism and the best way I think, to tell the side of a different Judaism, which is also the best of Judaism, but less rational. One mystical is that the great book called the crucifix. So I wrote a book about the quizzes and then I was on the road and I love the tenacity. I love the Bible. And I thought the greatest window into the philosophy of the Bible is Deuteronomy.
Speaker 1 00:02:49 I think it's a greatest introduction to biblical philosophy. So I wrote a book about the tenacity through a book about Deuteronomy. And then I was thinking about, okay, sorry. I wrote three books about great books and what's my next project. And here's what happened after I gained already confidence. I decided to stop hiding behind books about books and start to write my book about his readiness, which is probably the thing that I care about the most, trying to understand Israeli news, trying to be in a role where I can help heal this roominess. And I realized that the greatest division in Israel is between the secular religious national universal that divide. And I started writing that book a month after the 2014 operation in Gaza. So that was the summer of 2014. I started writing that book. And then while I was writing this book about the secular beliefs in Israel, I realized you have to write a chapter about be right left divide, because you can't understand the secular just without understanding the right left to find.
Speaker 1 00:03:52 And then that chapter grew and grew and grew and grew and grew. And it turned into a book of its own. So cath 67 was a branch of the wandering Jew. It turned into a book of its own and my editor sworn Wells. They haven't squared the, and let's just say, this was the first book and it will come out 50 years. So there's six day more. So that book was that. Then I went back to write, what's called <inaudible>, it's a pun in Hebrew, and now it's out. And this was after these two books were supposed to beat both of them. My fourth book, after I wrote books about books to write a great book about Israelian, they said the issues are dividing Israelis and it's split into two books. So actually the wandering jewel spoke to me the first book, but then an accident happened cat 67 was more an Alice, the second book.
Speaker 0 00:04:40 Got it. So when someone ultimately does a source critical analysis of your publishing history, they'll believe it identify the or source of catch 67 as part of the lender in June, before it get extricated,
Speaker 1 00:04:52 You did a good job hiding it.
Speaker 0 00:04:56 Is it crazy to say though, in some ways, your first three books, basically in some ways, translating some of the greatest books and greatest ideas of Jewish intellectual history into an Israeli idiom, cause you were writing more for Israelis then for your English speaking audience, that's not to disrespect your English speaking audience, but that's where your heart is. And I want to talk about that at some point today, in some ways, those books are almost like a primary source text of this book in the sense of how do I give Israelis access to Miranda volume, to the guide, to the perplexed? How do I induct them into a conversation about universalism particularism, which is not a new question? It's actually an old, my monities who's our request. So in some ways it felt like reading this book was almost helping to explain to your readers over the last 10 years, this is why I wanted you to read my monities. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 00:05:44 This makes a lot of sense. This is what I got from a lot of readers in Israel. They read because I believe the Hebrew version of the wandering Jew. And I spoke there about their sources of secular identity, like the founding fathers of secular identity. How how'd the, um, <inaudible> it thought that the deepest secular identity is a kind of secularism that is inspired by Jewish tradition and it's connected intimately to Jewish tradition, but it's not controlled by Jewish tradition connected to our path. We're not controlled by our past and many readers, many secondary readers after they read this book and they said, Oh, we want to meet that kind of secular Israelis that are connected to their paths without being controlled by the past, where can we start? And many of them started with, so the Tufts are loving the whole thing. They start with going back.
Speaker 1 00:06:32 So this wasn't planned, but my book set out, but around me, the cuisine and Melinda were there for readers that finish this book, they realize he wanted to connect to Judaism and stay secular and be liberated from Judaism. And the way to connect was to start reading the ideas of my mind and easy ideas of how they be. I got this all over the place and this wasn't planned. They didn't say, Oh, the books. And then I'll get a lot of readers through these books who his fourth book, but that was a great unintended result of the ones that we do in Hebrew
Speaker 0 00:07:04 And in effect by doing so. You're also telling secular Israelis that the people who they viewed as their icons, whether it's Bialik or a HUD or whoever else, those people of course were reading my monitors also. So even to be a learned reader of the Jewish secular tradition is to be knowledgeable of these pieces. It reminds me of, because I'd love to understand a little bit. What do you think has driven the whole economy of ideas? The return to Jewish tradition in Israeli society reminds me of our mutual friend, shies RFE. His parable on this is a people wandering through the wilderness, accumulates, all a bunch of stuff along the way, cherished possessions. And when they arrive at the place they need to get to, it turns out it's at the bottom of a Hill, they have to climb to the top of the Hill.
Speaker 0 00:07:44 So they leave their cherished possessions at the bottom of the Hill until they get to the top of the Hill. And they built out their home. After a few decades of dealing with actually building the home, they start to miss their stuff, their carpets, their jewelry, all the things that they left at the bottom of the Hill. And it goes back down. So it's archi says who's a secular teacher. That's basically what's happened. We built a home and we missed our cherished possessions. I love that image. I wonder what else happened over the last 20, 30 years that made this search for Jewish identity, that you've been such a major leader of in Israeli society. What made it come alive? Is it a vacuum created by politics? What else is going on that makes this quest so pointless?
Speaker 1 00:08:25 Yeah. It's a very important question. I want to answer it. I'll beforehand. It assumes that all our listeners know that this is happening in Israel. So let's just first say that out loud. Okay. There is something very big happening in Israel that maybe no one told you about that. Some of you don't know about. And that is that there's a new generation of Israelis. Most of them secular Israelis, they're searching in a very serious way for Jewish identity. They're connecting to Jewish sources and it's not as constant, a lot between movements. It's not secular Israelis becoming good, just as release. It's, it's really trying to become more Jewish. And my book is about how can you explain that philosophically and you who this question is, how can we explain that sociologically, emotionally, psychologically, what's going on here, but this is something big and promising that's happening in Israel.
Speaker 1 00:09:16 So first of all, my theory is, and I love, I never heard terrible. And I think it's really beautiful and really powerful for me that parable is a combination of two other parables. One is a headset and the other is a mussels. So Philadel Hamilton describes in that case, great utopia, or you imagined the future of the Jewish States. And he imagines these two people wandering around Israel and singing. Amazing, amazing statement that you explodes and they ask one person, how did you do this? How are you so successful? And that you said it was easy. We weren't scaring on our backs, the weight of tradition. So this reminds me, I have a brother and he is a marathon runner, like I'm talking real marathon runner. And I remember there were a few years after he finished the military where he was running with a bag, filled with weights.
Speaker 1 00:10:09 And he told that many of his friends are the same. And he explained to me, when you run the three on your back, when you get to the real thing to a marathon for a race, you take the bag off and you feel like you could fly. You're liberated from all the weights. And that's how I think Hanson imagined the power of secularism, where for thousands of years, we're carrying on our backs, the weight of tradition. And finally, we took that bag off our backs and we can fly. So that's one fantasy and that's one part of <inaudible> parallel, right? You take it off and now you're a light and you can build a, you can do things in once. And that was the fantasy of secularism, where in order to build the country, in order to liberate the energetic and creative and productive forces of the Jewish people, we have to throw the bag, filled the waves of tradition and rabbis and luffa and books.
Speaker 1 00:11:02 So throw the books away, throw traditional way, throw all that weight away and be light and start flying. So that's one image, but almost always has a different image. And it's the image, which I think shies off is playing with. It's the image of being an inheritor and is now place where he says like this, imagine you had a complicated relationship with your grandfather and your grandmother. You love them, but they were threatening and you have a complicated relationship with them. Then they die and everything they owned you're inheriting. So what do you do? So let's say there's one person that is so connected to his grandparents because there is precious sweet grandparents. He can't give anything up. So he, or she would just take everything that their grandparents owned, all the chairs, all the stools, their learning plan, everything. That's just all their junk.
Speaker 1 00:11:54 Everything goes into their house. How will a person's house look like if he puts all the junk of his grandparents in we'll probably be messy and it won't be their house. They will have their own feeling and they won't have much room. Right? Imagine someone else you've done. This is the person he had issues with his grandparents. So he decided he's not taking anything. They owned nothing that they own will enter my house. That was their statement. So imagine that kind of a person. So that means because they don't want it to anything that their grandparents owns and they're not going to enjoy the jewelry and the treasures and things are very valuable. So I'm also says Israelis lost the art of inheritance, the arts of the cultural inheritance. On the one hand, we have the debt team. Everything that Jews have ever created is going to be inside our house.
Speaker 1 00:12:50 It's going to be a part of our life, which means about the no room for itself and the angry to go mean that because they have a problem with rabbis and legislation, all those issues, everything is outside of our house, including wisdom and treasures and everything. And I think I'm also is like, okay, now let's learn the arts of inheritance. How do we put into our house, our Israeli modern house, that best of our tradition. And we also have to know what not to keep. Let's not be automatic, not automatic rejection, not automatic adoption. Now that movements from angry seculars there, you throw everything else and smart secularism. Let's start identifying the treasures of our paths of our tradition and make them part of our life and understanding that by doing that, we're not less secular. We are more secular because being secular in the Israeli understanding was being liberated, being free. And as expansion of Liberty, instead of only being liberated from my tradition, I'm also liberated to adopt things from my tradition,
Speaker 0 00:13:49 The English word for this is actually quite powerful because that has the same double edge connotation, which is baggage, right? Baggage can just mean, you know, the stuff you carry with you, but could also mean baggage. It's like the stuff that weighs you down and it's heavy until you figure out what's the right calculus between the baggage of the stuff you have to carry. And the baggage that you actually want to take with you and bring with you, can't get there. And actually once, I mean, I was teaching at Brandeis students who were preparing to teach in Jewish day schools, and I was supposed to teach them a kind of introduction to Talmud. They weren't supposed to be Judaic studies teachers, but they had to understand culturally the meaning of Tomlin, rabbinic, Judaism, et cetera. I remember for a few sessions of this class, there was a person in the room who just was fighting me.
Speaker 0 00:14:30 You know, you're a teacher, too. It was fighting, but unrelated to the text, couldn't get into it. Didn't like it was angry. And then finally had this outburst and basically just went on for about a 15 minute monologue about what ultimately was an abusive teacher of Tom wood, who she once had. And as a result, how was baggage? And then we spent the next two. It was one of the greatest teaching experience ever had. I said, okay, guys, let's get everybody's baggage on the table. What's your baggage with Tom wood, with rabbinic Judaism, with religious Judaism, we talked for two hours. It was therapeutic. And then we had the most magnificent class where those, the rest of the semester. And there's something of like a metaphor for the Jewish people here, post enlightenment of we had to deal with like 200 years of shedding, all the baggage of this stuff. And now maybe we have to figure out psychologically, what's our relationship with all of this stuff, because it's actually quite beautiful and it's not just decoration. It's not just jewelry. It's actually the stuff that gives your life. Meaning that makes you feel tethered. That makes you connected to a bigger story.
Speaker 1 00:15:28 Exactly, of course. I love the plan. We have our baggage where we put all our things, which we cherish and baggage, and it's also baggage. And we have to figure it out. We've been there with that students that is angry and they don't even know why they were so angry. And I look, I make a distinction between two types of secretaries. There's a second reason and there's been the chips and separates it. And then she asks me secularism is that angry students and grant where the only way to liberate that you and to create a new, healthy, fearless Jew is to take tradition and throw it out the window. And to have them say no, the only way to create a new Jew, they had a fantasy of healing, the personality of Jews. And they always do that. It's not true ending your relationship with Judaism, but through healing, our relationship with Judaism.
Speaker 1 00:16:22 And obviously I think Israel is now moving from Billy. Jeff's key to how that from ending our relationship with our tradition to start to heal our relationship with tradition. And what does that mean? I think healing secular people, healing the relationship with tradition is taking tradition, stripping it from authority, from power, and then seeing it for what it is now in my book, I tell a story and I don't know if this story resonates with Americans, but let me try to share with you a way I experienced it. When I was in the military in basic training, I had a very, very tough commander and I call it the book because I don't want to call it. Israel is actually a first. He lived somewhere and I was the worst kind of soldier because you know that I always lose things. I forget where things are.
Speaker 1 00:17:12 Now. You can kind of get through life of losing things, but not in the military because when you lose something, you can real trouble. I used to meet him. If a kid, not from commander Nostrand at night, and anybody went to sleep and I used to run up and down this Hill, carrying all the things I lost that day, carrying up and down, up and down. And I remember the only way I could actually do this perform the right tiny was to cheat. And then he caught me cheating. And he took me to a mishpat to like a military courtroom and it was supposed to buy. So I have all this trauma from this commander. This guy was like the symbol of military authority to me. And I was afraid of them. And 10 years later, 12 years later, I'm giving a class in Hebrew university about Ramadan.
Speaker 1 00:17:59 And when I finished the class, I'm walking down the halls of Hebrew university and talking to my students about Ron bomb and Aristotle. And I see him now, my heart starts, you know, I said, shadow, shadow him. And I walk away. And while I'm walking away, I'm thinking to myself, me, huh? He's not coming out there anymore. There's nothing he can do to you. He's not going to tell you to go running now. But here's the thing. When I saw him, I saw his authority. So then the jet-ski argues Judaism carry authority for so many years. Every time we'll see Judaism, we'll see authority. The only way to liberate ourselves from the authority of tradition, it's literally yourselves from division. But how that one said, no, we could take tradition stripped from its authority and heal our relationship with tradition and the book I tell how 20 years later I met nostril. And again, it was in <inaudible> and we met and suddenly I see him and like my heart stopped beating. I could just a guy not so amazing your name. We sat at a coffee place. He's such a cool guy. We had a great laugh
Speaker 0 00:19:02 Matter. If you lost anything on the way to the shook, he didn't care.
Speaker 1 00:19:06 He's not angry at me. And I realized Nancy, you guys that took me 20 years to finish the arm. Now I'm done with the army. So my secretary is in first-generation every time it's not religion. It's all the commander it's onboarding today. Three, four generations into secularism. Maybe secularism is so mature. Judaism. We can see something exciting, something inspiring, something interesting. It doesn't see them anymore. So I think, and this is what I'm trying to explain to Israelis, secular Israelis being connected to Judaism. It doesn't mean that Persepolis is weak. It means it's strong and it's mature. It's mature enough to reconnect the tradition without it echoing its authority
Speaker 2 00:19:56 Shalom. My name is Alisha, and I want to invite you to join me on an exciting intellectual journey together with faculty from the shadow government Institute, in know new Hebrew language podcast skit. In our first season, we're focusing on the long history of cultural clashes between Judaism and its surroundings from the Bible. And till today, looking at how it's interacted with everyone from canal Knights to quote janitor and Islam, discussing thinkers, like my money visa, theater heads, and they had the app. You could find the show on Spotify and other podcast platforms by searching for escape each night, or by going to our Hebrew website.
Speaker 0 00:20:40 Beautiful. There's one piece about this book that I really struggled with. It won't surprise you, but it's your chapter are called non diasphoric Judaism. So what I struggled with, which is on all the ideas of your book as a diaspora Jew, as very much an American Jew in this American idiom, all of your ideas about Judaism made sense to me as true for the state of Israel and Israeli Jews and true for diaspora Jews also because you're making a much larger post enlightenment argument than just about Zionism. You're arguing this reconciliation between a mature secularism that doesn't see its job as shattering religion and a mature religion that understands that it can offer. As you say about religious Zionism, it offers tools for religious modernization, that in some ways secularism can't do by living in the framework of religion and engaging with the world, it's doing something that secularism can't do.
Speaker 0 00:21:33 So I felt very connected to this story. I felt I identified with this, and yet I couldn't figure out whether there's actually a place for diaspora Jews in this project or whether this is only something that could be coherent in Israel. And if it's okay with you, I'll reach us the two sentences on this, where you said, um, page one 13, thanks to Zionism. Jews can begin to carefully peel away from their Judaism. The mechanisms that have burdened and beleaguered it in Israel. Jews can worry less about how to preserve Judaism and wonder more about what its purpose should be. If the diaspora burdened, Judaism, Zionism might be a way to unburden it. So I guess you can see why I struggle with this is it have to be in the framework of Zionism. There was some parody of diaspora here. Is it possible that there's some version of an American Jewish story, which is parallel, or do you believe, and that's okay if we're to say it to an American audience, no guys, this is our project. And what you're doing is holding onto a version of a story that is just different.
Speaker 1 00:22:31 Yes. So this is a very good question. I'm not really sure what the answer is because in this book, my hope was an arrogant who will read this book and find their Judaism for them also, but it also serves a different purpose for American Jews to understand what's powerful, but it's really Judaism today. When many of us are so disenchanted to miss really politics, to know that while Israeli politics is dysfunctional and we're just entering our fourth elections in two years, there's something very, very powerful culturally and spiritually going on in Israel. And my book tried to explain the philosophy behind this cultural Renaissance in Israel. But yes, there was a chapter I wrote in Hebrew, which was a critique of the glutes. And I not only like keep it in for English, I even expanded it in English, hoping to trigger a conversation. And it's a sad conversation.
Speaker 1 00:23:24 So I hope by the way, the result of the conversation is that I'm wrong. But here's the argument, which I hope I am wrong. Alternate orthodoxy is very serious, very deep and had a very important prediction. It's a following that, but during the tea is dangerous for Jewish identity and being exposed to modern ideas, to values, to modern heroes, it will be like an earthquake, even very stable buildings collapse. And, but during these an earthquake and the building of Judaism might collapse and best thing to do, if you know, an earthquake is coming is just to go somewhere else. And I think ultra Orthodox, he was a following impulse that knew an earthquake. It is coming and we should go somewhere else. We should be there mentally, spiritually identity wise when the earthquake happens. So the best way to protect yourself. So the early majority is not to be in modernity, is to shut Judaism down and to protect itself from eternity and right, which takes us to a second conclusion of ultra orthodoxy, the best way to close Judaism, as well as the exposure to material party is to freeze Judaism because I think it's about constant change and the best way to guarantee that we don't modernize Judaism and therefore threaten is to block chain, which creates a paradox.
Speaker 1 00:24:44 Judaism always changed. And that that color Judaism is not going to change is itself change. This is a paradox and this is all work of the apricots important story. And for the last generation, if you'd read them and here's my problem, I think they're right. This is a problem you heard that I think they were right. And the following sense that we look at the data, and this is something that had the I'm understood before seeing the data and you see American Judaism today, and I hope you prove me wrong. You do that, but it seems like the more your Judaism is frozen and closed. That's the double impulse of orthodoxy closed through this unfreeze Judaism. The more the continuity of your community is guaranteed. And the more it's open and dynamic and changes, the more your continuity is threatened. And I think unless I'm wrong, I think the numbers here are very clear, which they take to the following conclusion.
Speaker 1 00:25:41 In modern times, we have two very bad options, bad option. Number one is to distort Judaism and protect it. Cause I think closing Judaism and freezing Judaism is a distortion of Judaism, but you do that in order to protect Judaism. So there will be no assimilation. So we'll have continuity so bad. So number one is to distort it, but protect it. That option. Number two is not distorted. Keep it open, embrace change, and then threaten your continuity. So you distort it or protect it or, or create the best treaty that was just open and dynamic, but threatened. And you could lose it. It was, those are two very bad options. Israel offers a third option in Israel because Jewish identity is guaranteed. It's guaranteed. If you live in Israel and stay in Israel, more than that, 90% chances that your grandchildren will see as Jews and raise their children as Jews and Israel.
Speaker 1 00:26:46 Judaism is guaranteed. Even if you're secular, no matter what you are, what kind of a dude you are. And that's why in Israel is the only place where we can open Judaism without threatened to use. It's the only place we can do that. And that is why I said, and the founding fathers as eyes and thought, it's a safe Haven from antisemitism. Maybe today it's a safe Haven for Judaism and the best of Judaism can flourish in Israel without being threatened. So that's my argument. I think it's a powerful argument for Israel. It's a sad argument from American Jews, and I hope you Huda you probate.
Speaker 0 00:27:25 I want to prove you wrong. And I have some thoughts on it. And it has to do with the fact that you're using the term continuity and data in a very specific context, which means not all Jews today will have Jewish grandchildren, which is not the same as our, the same dynamic processes of creation and interpretation taking place in American Jewish life, but under different circumstances. But even before we get to that though, meta, there's another danger. You're not accounting for in the state of Israel. And this one, I was really troubled by because if the danger quote unquote for American Jews is basically disappearance, lack of continuity by being in an open society, you create the possibility of either American Jews could become obsessed with continuity and therefore closed off to this society or discontinuous. But the other danger and state of Israel is that religion does something that you don't want it to do, which is that it becomes juxtaposed to the discourse of nationalism and statehood in ways that are also distorting.
Speaker 0 00:28:24 And you say it at one point in the same chapter, precisely because Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people it's society can afford to highlight the non national aspects of Judaism. Well, that's great when it does, but the thing that I think many American Jews look with great fear and suspicion about Israel are the ways in which Judaism is actually being interpreted, not as non national, but precisely as hyper national expressed in the form of politics expressed in the form of religion, juxtaposed to the state. Very things that diaspora frees you from is that I don't have to become obsessed with the national and state list elements. So it doesn't that temper a little bit. The Israel is the great laboratory for the Jewish people in the modern age, in ways that the Asper isn't isn't that its own danger and fear that Israelis have to negotiate around this.
Speaker 1 00:29:13 Yes, I think you're right, but Zionism is this whole experiment for Jews as a collective have power in obtaining power. And this is also something power can change us. How it changes us as individuals and power could change us as collective and power corrupts and absolute power corrupts completely. And this is all this is, I read this great book. I forgot who wrote it. It's called the power paradox and the scribes, the dynamics of how powerful people, their minds change power is like here or when it changes you wait, I'm sorry to interrupt. Do you know
Speaker 0 00:29:42 Who is the best tour on this of all the people? This is what he says in 1897, that design is Congress at the same time that he articulates this beautiful vision for secular cultural, deeply Jewish renewal. He warns that the wrong version of a nation state could actually be the opposite of this. Cause it could create his secular calcifications.
Speaker 1 00:30:04 Here's the thing. So the total, this is what my book do to run and music. We'll share it right in four of the inter the land of Israel, he says, you're not only changing your geography. You're changing your politics. So massive shift from being a pair of this people of the powerful people and tablet could change you. And the tone has, but how to guide you. This is the Jewish back of how to protect you from the corrupting impact of your own power and Zionism. Resurrects. That challenge, we have power in power can change us on power corrupt us. And until it doesn't say power corrupts, so avoid power. It says, no, we need power because without pap where we can change the world, but the paradox is that that power might change your own world. And the question is, are you Jewish enough to protect yourself?
Speaker 1 00:30:51 So your own power. So Ben-Gurion said that Israel brings them back to life because we're back to the location of the Bible and the language of the Bible. I think he's mainly right, because we're also back to the politics in the Bible where Jews have a collective of power and certainly the prophets, their preachings are alive again because of the Hamas on the Bible, the guidance on how to deal with power is alive again. And it's only alive because we could screw up the only way we can become an exemplary societies. We can also become a corrupt society. You can only pick up ethical. If you're in a position, you can also become unethical. And that the situation today, I think it's too close to call 73 years into this project, but it's possible that power is corrupting the Jewish people. It's also possible you who that the Jewish people can show.
Speaker 1 00:31:32 It's possible to have powdering, to use that power, to make the world a better place and not to make their own tradition, a distorted tradition. Now, as you know, we're not observers of history. We have observers of Israel, we're street fighters. I think you're with be also here at the streets a bit. And we're here not to guess, but we'll have to resign as him. We're here to promote not to predict, but to promote the change will happen with science. And I think our greatest race question is what will we do with our power? I think we should have power, but our greatest fastest, or we can do with our power. And your question is that is the right question. Is religion about making us excited about power or careful about power and you're right. Gets sometimes that Israel, religion is not making us more careful about the usage of our power. It's actually making us sometimes abuse our own power. You're right. And because we could screw up because that's why this is so interesting because it can also go, right?
Speaker 0 00:32:31 Yeah. I guess I did take the charge of that chapter Mihai. I took it personally in the sense of, not me because wrong about this, but I, it, as Mika could be right about this. And if he's right about it, there's two options basically for diaspora Jews. One is, well, I guess we should pack it in and leave or become curating, right? Or actually this is the mandate of what diaspora Jews have to figure out for ourselves. And I'm fully in on that. I guess the place where I would love to see greater synergy here is that diaspora doesn't become the antithesis that makes the thesis of Zionism work, that they actually might be projects that could communicate. I think I've told you this story before, but you know, one of the great examples of this phenomenon of the bringing back of religion in Israeli society is the Friday night services on the beach, on the port and Tel Aviv take place.
Speaker 0 00:33:21 Usually during the summer, I suspect that there'd been suspended during the pandemic, but in the summer 1100, 1200 Israelis come for a cup of latch about services Friday night on the port of Tel-Aviv. And they're not quote unquote religious Jews like they're Israelis, they're going for a couple of Shabbat. And then they're going to eat shrimp afterwards, somewhere else on the port of Tel-Aviv. And it's beautiful. We go there every summer with our family for this to feel out fun fact, where did that come from? Rodney acre and a bunch of others went to New York once and they went looking for American Judaism and they go to B'nai gesture and a congregation on the upper West side of Manhattan, which has the most incredible music and a Friday night service in the world. And they sit there and they say, this is amazing. We should do this in Israel, but you know what we can do in Israel that they can't do Epernay Jeshurun we could do this in public.
Speaker 0 00:34:06 They could probably get the city of Tel Aviv to allow us to use the port. So then they go and set it up in the port and Tel Aviv. I was there maybe four or five summers ago with a group of rabbis from Hartman. And I hear them saying to each other, this is really great. You know, we should do this back in America. I was like, guys, it's an, it's a diaspora idea, but at its best Israelis are looking to American Jews and saying, in what ways are your innovations around religion, spirituality, Jewish culture really good. And now I want to find a way to do it in Israel. And in what ways are American Jews looking at Israelis? I want American Jews to read this book because I want them to be inspired that actually the project of religious renewal by secular people, it could be a diaspora project too, but I'm going to have to find a way to make it work in this idiom. How do we make that conversation really possible?
Speaker 1 00:34:53 Right? So maybe this is one way to look at it. <inaudible> and one of his books, I think it's radical. Ben radical now makes the observation. He says, Israeli Jews are the chosen people and they ask, produce other choosing people. And I think this is a way to think about it in this real, your Jewish identity is guaranteed. You'll do anything. And it's guaranteed. There's four things in the air. It is really there for free. And you don't think about it. First of all, we speak Hebrew. It's a big deal. And two, we live in Israel. It's a big deal. And three almost guaranteed that almost all your best friends are going to be Jewish. No matter what college you go to. And four time is too like Israel. The next holidays is to be Chabad. So think about it. Like you're a dentist, but like what's more biblical than being a dentist with an issue.
Speaker 1 00:35:42 And he's speaking Hebrew and the people that you're serving, you're everything, all Jews and conduct the songs and the radio. And you're secular and you hate to use it. So like, it doesn't matter. You're breathing Judaism. You're inhaling Judaism, passively. It's in the air, your space, time, language, people, it's all Jewish and it's for free. You don't choose. It chooses you and the United States. And they asked bruh, if you don't really work hard to choose it, you lose it because the language is not a Hebrew and most of your fence, many times the people at Jewish and the time, the calendar is not Jewish time. And you're not in Israel. You're so that you have to make an effort. It's not in the area, have to make an effort. And in order to make an effort, you have to make the community exciting. So you create an attachment and you create great music, because if you're the choosing people, if you have to choose a Judaism actively, or else you lose it, you have to be now very innovative, creative, and make Judaism exciting.
Speaker 1 00:36:42 So I think this is the great advantage of being the chosen people, meaning that our identity is imposed on us and chosen for us is that our identity is guaranteed. The great advantage of being the choosing people is that your identity is not guaranteed. You have to fight for it and therefore stop trivial. And therefore you have to make it interesting, creative, innovative. And this, I think you would have our two communities meets where I think it's not a coincidence that the best innovative parts of Judaism in Israel are somehow imported from America because we need to borrow ideas and practices from a Judaism that is fighting to stay alive. And it's only way to stay alive is to be very creative and innovative because everything that is guaranteed is also trivialized taken for granted. And you can forget about it. Like imagine everything. Now we don't take for granted because of Corona virus. So in Israel, in Israel, you could forget that you're Jewish. You're so Jewish that you forget that you're Jewish and America. You don't forget that you have to choose to be a Jew every day. So this is, I think where we as Rangers have a lot to learn from American Judaism. We need to ask for Judaism for three years and to be alive, you guys need Israeli Jews and for Judaism to stay alive.
Speaker 0 00:37:52 Okay. Two more questions for you behind the bed. I'll let you go. Cause I could talk to you all day, but you don't have all day. You know, one of the things that I also appreciated about the book and this is not surprising is that it's kind of like a Zionist, my monitoring it. Isn't, you're looking for a real deep middle ground between extremes. That's why you've remade, secularism, and religion ism to not be as opposites. There is a complicated secularism is a complicated religiosity and you're looking kind of for a harmonized unified place, Beit Hillel, the house of Hillel becomes a stand-in for that version of those in the dispute who can really disagree with their opponents, but can understand them, can articulate their views. It's interesting because when I was reading this, I was thinking about catch 67. Also your book about the divides between the right and the left in Israel and especially the very applied practical suggestions you make in catch 67, which ultimately you published again in English as eight steps to strict the conflict where the goal is something of a harmonized middle ground.
Speaker 0 00:38:50 What was interesting to me about this is president Rivlin in 2015, when he gives his famous tribes of Israel speech, where he says there's four major tribes, there's not one dominant Israeli identity anymore. There are four different tribes, roughly 20 to 30% of Israeli society are quote unquote secular, a little smaller. Our religious Zionist about a quarter are higher, 80 and about 20% are Arabs, but he doesn't do what you do, which is how do we have one unified identity? What he does instead is how do we be tribal, but in a more effective way. So what's driving your push towards a unified identity, as opposed to a tolerant identity, as opposed to a society that's made up of multitudes. That figure out a way to communicate with each other.
Speaker 1 00:39:36 You know, president Obama, his famous speech in 2004 in the DNC. He has a line there where he says we are not as divided as our politics suggest we are not as divided as our politics suggest. Now I don't know if he was right about America. I know that line is a true line about Israel. You look at Israel from the lens of politics, you see a very polarized country where you must assume that it's really hate each other and they can't agree over anything. When you look into his readiness, you realize that most Israelis agree on most issues. So while I think, and I can't, I don't want to move like the Israel verse on barricade being again, we just lose one time. I think that in America, American politics is polarized because America is polarized. And in Israel it's very poppy or polarized, but Israel is not polarized.
Speaker 1 00:40:29 So Israel politics doesn't reflect the society like it does in America. It actually masks the fact that society is not that polarized and it's not polarized on these two have acid issues, right? Versus left that tea versus 20 secular risk-free images. And that's because most Israelis love Judaism and they hate the hub. They don't like the rabbit. So Israelis don't like Buddhist establishment, but they'd like to treat, you said, I'm saying Israelis across the board, love Judaism. And across the board, they can't stand the diligence establishments. So how do you turn those two impulses into a consensus into action, into inspiration? When it comes to the Israeli Palestinian conflict, almost all Jewish Israelis do not want to control the lives of Palestinians. And they do not want to hold a military regime that occupies a civilian population in the West bank. They also don't want to be threatened by college students.
Speaker 1 00:41:23 And they afraid of withdrawal from the West bank would put Israelis in a position where they're thread that goes begins. So I would say this double catch, we don't want to control Palestinians and don't want be threatened by them. We love Judaism that don't want to be controlled by Judaism. This is where most Israelis agreed. But what we have is the problem is these are two like tensions or paradoxes. And I felt like you knew that my role is to turn that tension into words, into a worldview, into something that verbalizes the intuition of most Israelis. So they can realize that we actually are not as polarized as our politics suggest.
Speaker 0 00:42:04 Well, thanks so much for listening to our show and special, thanks to Mika Goodman for this wonderful conversation. Identity crisis is a product of the shell of heartbeat Institute in partnership with the Jewish telegraphic agency. It was produced this week by devastate Calman and Alex Bailey Dylan and edited by Alex Bailey Dylan with assistance from MIRI Miller and user provided by. So-called learn more about the Shalom Hartman Institute. Visit us online, Sholom hartman.org. We'd love to know what you think about the show you can rate and review us on iTunes to help more people find us. And you can also write to
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