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Speaker 1 00:01:09 Hi, everyone. Welcome to identity crisis. The show about news and ideas from the Shalom Hartman Institute. I'm UDA Kurtzer president of shell apartment Institute North America, and we're recording on December 9th, 2020. Coming off of this contentious us election. I was reminded of where I was at this time in 2016, around the election of Donald Trump. And in particular reminded of what happened that following weekend as it happened, the big piece of the work of the shelving apartment Institute in North America for the last seven or eight years has been a deep engagement between the Muslim American community and the Jewish community through a program called the Muslim leadership initiative, which actually originated in bringing Muslim American leaders to Israel and to encounter a different type of conversation with, uh, Jews and the Jewish people about the meaning of the state of Israel and Zionism in particular it's controversial program.
Speaker 1 00:01:59 We'll, we'll talk a little bit about that later on, but it happened to be, you can't really script this, that that weekend, beginning of November, 2016 was scheduled to be the alumni weekend for the Muslim leadership initiative, and immediately upon the election of Donald Trump, which I think many of us still in retrospect look back at as having been surprised by, even though it turns out a majority of Americans were not surprised by that there was a tremendous amount of disruption at the Institute, as we said, okay, well, what does the agenda for a Muslim Jewish conversation look like in the wake of the Trump election? As you may recall, actually, anti-Muslim rhetoric was a feature of the Trump campaign. Then it was one of the first things he did when he came into office was the so-called Muslim ban. And so it was clearly a feature, not a bug of the Trump candidacy.
Speaker 1 00:02:46 And I remember very poignantly that weekend as an incredibly intense and emotional encounter between Jewish leaders and Muslim leaders asking what does the agenda for Jewish Muslim relations look like in an America in which that very question, what are our relationships to each other is now on the table in a totally different way. I'm thrilled today to have two of my long-time conversation partners in the Muslim American community here on identity crisis today, you can ask Eunice is a writer, commentator and coauthor of the forthcoming children's book, strangers in Jerusalem. She's a co-founder of the first chapter of sisterhood of Salaam Shalom in Kansas city and served on the board of the national organization, alumni of the American Muslim civic leadership initiative in Southern California, and many other affiliations Rabiah Chaudhry is an attorney advocate and author of the New York times bestselling book OD non-story and executive producer before part HBO documentary, the case against the ordinance I had, she was a co-producer and co-host of three podcasts undisclosed the 45th and most recently hidden gin.
Speaker 1 00:03:47 And it's worth naming that over 360 million downloads of undisclosed, the biggest wrongful conviction podcast in the world, and also a Truman national security fellow member of the Vanguard board of Aspen Institute and a whole host of other civic and national affiliations. I know both Robbia and anus through our Heartland Muslim leadership initiative. And I'm thrilled to have you both here today. First of all, welcome onto the show in us and Ravi. Hi, thanks for having us. You had a, so let's talk a little bit about the agenda of Muslim Jewish relations and where we are today. And I think it's useful to look back at where we were three, four years ago and where we might have been had president Trump been reelected, I guess I first want to ask, what do you think has changed over the last three or four years in good directions or in bad directions about the state of our relationship between our two communities? Know that's why don't I start with you?
Speaker 2 00:04:37 I think the outpouring of support that the Muslim community witnessed specifically with the Muslim ban, we had as many Jews as Muslims turn out in defiance of that really solidified our relationship. I think there was a piece of, I don't know, who wrote it, thanking Trump for bringing the Muslims and Jews together. So three Muslims and just to go is just one of the many unintended consequences of the Trump era, but clearly the media picture became that we needed to fight Islamophobia and antisemitism. And the broader picture is for us to address some of the common concerns that we now have as faith minorities. So if anything it's really solidified our relationship,
Speaker 1 00:05:13 It is kind of interesting just using sister to Salaam Shalom as an example, I think sisterhood was founded in 2010, but between 2016 and 2017 went from 40 chapters to 150. So something quite dramatic, a sense of urgency kind of emerged of, okay, well, we're going to have to look at this differently. What about you Ravya what have you seen in terms of the shift in the Trump era and where do you think if we start looking ahead, what if that was the stuff that had to happen in this kind of state of emergency in the Trump era and what if that's going to actually linger beyond that moment?
Speaker 3 00:05:46 Yeah, I mean, I think certainly there has been interfaith engagement between Muslims and Jews kind of in a different way prior to Trump, but post-Trump, I mean, the engagement that we started seeing the collaborations, the conversations between, I would say Muslim and Jewish organizations and leaders that really you'd never saw happen in the past began happening. I mean, in the last few years, we have the organization of M Jack, which is a national Muslim Jewish Alliance and edema, another Muslim Jewish Alliance. And it's bringing together organizations like, for example, the ADL and ISNA, these are not organizations that ever really worked together. Basically there were these litmus tests in our community is that if you worked with folks across this political kind of line of being pro-Israel anti-Israel, whatever, it just, it wouldn't fly. But having said that, I do think that while we are seeing our two communities engage in a new way, which has been exciting, there's also at least I can say the Muslim community, even more polarization on this issue at the same time, there has been pushback against this. Although I feel like that might diminish over time. And then of course, under Trump, what we're seeing in terms of like the recognition of Israel by different Arab nations, I mean, this has sparked some conversation and that's not something that can really be rolled back once Trump leaves office. I mean, that has happened. That ship has sailed. And so I expect it to continue to sail in that direction.
Speaker 1 00:07:02 Islamophobia has been on the rise in America since really nine 11 as a huge shift in American consciousness. Let me put it like this. There's this article that I shared with both of you, we'll put it in the show notes from Jelani are doing Muslims, not only survives, but we thrived. He says Muslims were not nearly as feeble. It turns out as some corners of progressive discourse would have you believed when faced with adversity, Muslims dug in our heels and forcefully insisted on our place in the civic fabric of America. But I think more pointedly, he says, Trump is a salesman, tried to sell Islamophobia. It didn't work. And as a result, the community is more resilient today. So tell me a little bit about, first of all, do you buy that story? That Islamophobia was not nearly as big or as widespread or as popular as it seemed early on in the Trump era?
Speaker 1 00:07:48 Was this an overplayed narrative about America being really anti Muslim? And do you think that we continue on this trajectory if it turns out for instance, as seems to be the case with African-Americans with Latinos, that more of them voted for Trump in 2020, then in 2016, that may turn out to be the case for the Muslim American community to how do we supposed to understand the kind of state of Islamophobia right now in America? I'm curious personally, how fearful are each of you about what it means to be an American Muslim today? How do you see the American Muslim community kind of in the American discourse?
Speaker 3 00:08:19 Yeah, you know, I thought the framing of that article was really interesting and I thought, you know, if I want to take an absurd analogy to the extreme, it's almost like we should be thankful for COVID because it gave us the COVID vaccine. I mean, what you saw in terms of the resilience of American Muslims. I mean, to me, it was not a question of whether or not we are resilient and we belong. It was a matter of, kind of propelling us to that next stage. And so two years after Trump was elected, suddenly we saw all kinds of elections with Muslims getting involved in local level, running for positions on the national level. Obviously we had a couple of Muslim American women voted into Congress, and that was a direct response to Trump. That was a response to this disease. And this fear that we saw America voted for America voted for what he was selling.
Speaker 3 00:09:06 So to suggest that Islamophobia was not as big of an issue, no, that was, as you said earlier, that was a feature of his campaign. People wanted that, and you know, I've been tracking Islamophobia for years and, you know, after nine 11 was maybe the lowest point in the last 20 years, which is kind of crazy. And every year it got higher and higher and it got much higher actually in conservative political ranks. I mean, I remember reading a survey. It was before Trump. It was a couple of years before Trump, where like about 68% of the Republicans who were pulled said that they weren't sure if Muslim Americans should have the right to vote or run for office. And I was shocked because I don't think that kind of sentiment existed when I was growing up in this country. And so it's grown and Trump knew it and Trump put his finger on that pulse and he, he wrote it to the white house.
Speaker 3 00:09:52 So the fact now that Trump ended up being kind of an alien invasion that United the country, and suddenly everybody who was talking about Islamophobia or racism, institutional racism, or all these other issues that a lot of liberals and progressive, I would say liberals heard about, but didn't really see in their face. Trump put it in their face. He made real, what many of us have been saying for a long time? And so that's why you see a burgeoning of support on one side of the aisle for Muslims and all the solidarity we saw with the Muslim ban at the airports and stuff, because suddenly people were like, Oh my gosh, you know, it's actually a big deal. It actually is a thing.
Speaker 1 00:10:29 Well, I bet you ain't now I'm sure you've seen also in that outpouring of support in the growth of these chapters, in all of these various initiatives, a kind of growing awareness by people who may not even have known themselves as harboring anti-Muslim views, that they're beginning to process that. Do you think that there's a kind of tide turning in some significant way?
Speaker 2 00:10:48 I do. I actually responded pretty positively to this article. I do feel that the Muslim community has thrived in part because nothing has more corrective measure than being thrust into public scrutiny. And so just, not only did we, all of a sudden become centralized as the victims, the underdogs in the mainstream society, but also it had a corrective measure internally our threshold for what we would accept in terms of participation, politically participation, just civically and socially within the community, just expanded. Typically when you have Muslim leaders gaining power and platforms outside of Muslim spaces, it's always met with some degree of suspicion, some questioning about the extent to which they had sold out or the extent to which they are collaborating with the enemy. When islamophobias became such a big issue. As a result of Trump's rhetoric, we felt the sense of urgency to speak for ourselves to become more politically engaged and all of a sudden something that was internally not as celebrated became not only celebrated but necessary. So on that front, yes, it forced us out of our comfort zone out of our enclaves. It forced us towards engagement and conversation and interfaith dialogue on a level that I had not really experienced before
Speaker 1 00:12:20 Dig into that a little bit, because one of the questions that happens when a group is under pressure or under threat is you can kind of pull in two different directions. One is we need more group solidarity. We need to kind of stand together band together against the outside. And by holding together, we'll be stronger. And the other, as you suggested as the kind of the engagement strategy we have to reach out, we have to find our ways in this strikes me as right now being as an outsider, a huge referendum in American Muslim politics, right? Of where and what versions, uh, Robbie, you alluded to partnerships with the ADL, with the AJC, with the Shalom Hartman Institute, which versions of those types of engagement strategy are actually helping the community by elevating the profile of American Muslims by building deeper and more resilient relationships.
Speaker 1 00:13:06 But at the same time requiring people to interrogate their assumptions and to be willing to talk to people you really disagree with. And let's process that a little bit, because I know that you've both been in this deeply. I know Robbie you've written for years about your frustration with your community's instinct, to be more angry, that a controversial story about your community is circulating than about the scandal that's actually forcing that circulation. And both of you in your lives have modeled a kind of, no, we're going to talk to the people we disagree with because that's how we're going to actually be able to get through these difficult things. I'd love to hear just personally what that feels like and what it looks like to be really stretching from the place of just quote-unquote solidarity to actually relationship building. What draws you into that strategy? And what, if anything, what's been difficult about doing that?
Speaker 3 00:13:55 I do want to just quickly respond to what I said earlier. You know, I don't equate being activated with thriving. I mean, I see all of our communities as part of the greater American collective, and I don't think you can look at all of America and say that we've been thriving. I mean, I think in so many ways people are suffering in ways. We just couldn't even imagine four years ago, there are maybe some very small groups of people that really thrive under Trump because of economic gains. But otherwise I don't see it like in the same way, but anyhow, you know, about this issue about pushing against the fabric of the community in order to engage in different ways. Yeah. It has been a struggle. It continues to be a struggle. What I have seen there's this cancel culture that exists. And I would say like kind of the far left progressive, and it's not just in Muslim communities, you see across different communities on that end of the spectrum.
Speaker 3 00:14:41 I actually think though, in like the mainstream Muslim community, people are getting kind of tired of the cancel culture. Again, very recently, right before the election, we saw this happen with a Muslim organization because a couple of the board members from emerge had at one point engaged with the ADL or the AJC or full department, whatever, some of these organizations, and then suddenly there's this call to boycott them as they are organizing us for maybe the most important election of our lifetime. But I saw a very different response from most, I would say American Muslims and a lot of American Muslim leaders who might've jumped on the bandwagon like this a while ago, who just stayed silent. And if they're staying quiet about it, it means that they're not on board with that boycott. I think people are kind of got tired of it. And people are starting to realize that these kinds of purity tests leaves us talking to just ourselves and we're not going to get anywhere doing that simple as that.
Speaker 3 00:15:30 I mean, every time you say people you disagree with, but it's like, I can guarantee we agree on like 99% of things. Right. And I may agree with you more than I agree with people in my family on so many things in our lives, right? So I don't even look at somebody like you and say, you're a person might disagree with it. We might just get about one thing out of like a hundred thousand things, you know, different issues. But the problem is that for both of our communities, that we've seen this over and over again for American Muslims and for American Jews, that the one issue is real. Palestine has been the issue that has killed the conversation, despite all the other issues that we should have solidarity on. And that still exists to some extent, but I feel like people are starting to, I feel like it's not as intense as it was like, say like five or 10 years ago.
Speaker 2 00:16:16 Yeah. I think the problem is, and the problem, at least for me, that I've recognized it, that the Muslim community wants Muslim leaders in the community to abandoned practical efforts for symbolic gestures. And it's not effective. Like practical solutions are what we need. Symbolic gestures are just for the ideological possessed who are just creating a virtual community around their ideology and really have no desire for any practical outcome. And we've sort of outgrown this phase. And like Robbie, I said that we see the relationship between Muslims and Jews through the prism of the Israeli Palestinian standoff, even though most of the world's Muslims are not neither Palestinian nor Arab. So even though even territorially Israel is just a very small plot of land relative to the enormous problems that the Muslim was having. And real estate that the Muslim world occupies it is a small territorially and it might be a small issue, but it carries enormous psychological and spiritual space in the Muslim imagination.
Speaker 2 00:17:26 And I suspect that's the same for the Jews. And so consequently people are, or at least the Muslim community has abandoned practical solutions. They want psychological solutions. They want things that not only work on the ground, but also satisfy whatever triumphant narratives we've sort of allowed to infiltrate our conversation about this topic. And I think we've realized that that's problematic that ultimately we have to have practical solutions and that's going to require engagement, but it is going to require engagement beyond just the interfaith, because we've been breaking bread for a long, long time. I've been an interfaith for a long, long time. And there was a point at which I was like, okay, what's next? And my issue with interfaith is yes, it's fantastic that we're able to meet each other, but oftentimes you're meeting people who are very much like you, there's very little cognitive diversity in that space.
Speaker 2 00:18:20 You have liberal Muslims, meaning liberal Jews and saying, Oh, wow, look how much we have in common. It's still important. And we still need to engage in that level of interaction, but we also need to get to the second and third level. And I think where we fall apart is in this second step, not the third step. I think in the second step, we need to get together and talk about each other's narratives, share each other's narratives, maybe agree to disagree, but at least have some empathy and understanding of each other's narrative. The third and final step, I think for Muslims and Jews is to have an impact on policy and on politics and to find mutual interests and work together for practical outcomes, which is, I guess, I'm Jack is trying to do. And we have less of a problem with step one and step three, then we do step two, which is just to have that conversation about our irreconcilable narratives. There's a fear in the Muslim community that if we do that, that we're really going to be blurring lines between what does it mean to be Jewish and Zionist and Israeli. And, and I think actually the critics are the ones who are blurring the lines. We're trying to understand them.
Speaker 1 00:19:24 I'm very compelled by your distinction between the symbolic and the practical. Right? I get that. And I think figure out to something, but it doesn't fully explain why there's such profound hostility to this in part, because the answer can't simply be Israel is a symbol for Jews and Palestine is a symbol for Muslims. People don't go to war in the way that they have against MLI for instance, the Muslim leadership initiative program at Hartman, simply because of symbolic reasons. I think it indicates something else, which is that there's some perception that this isn't symbolic, it's sacred that a willingness to engage across difference on this. Even if I'm getting some sort of practical outcomes on the other end, real relationship building, the very activity, compromises something. So Holy and so significant. I don't think that symbolism fully captures it. Right. I watch what has happened to participants who have come to this program.
Speaker 1 00:20:14 And it really, it breaks my heart constantly because there are people I know and I love and I respect and I'm watching them just getting pulled apart by members of their own community for talking to me. And by the way, that's why I don't, it's not useful if I defend people in public because I'm the problem, not the solution, but that can't simply be because it's a violation of something symbolic or totemic. It does seem like it has to involve something much more sacred and it produces this anti normalization. It's not just, I can't engage with you. The very engagement with you compromise is something very deep. So tell me a little bit, what's that about what is that about in the Muslim community? What is it about Palestine that is not just a symbolic concern? What is it that runs so deep that makes the Jewish Zionist story and the engagement was Zionism. Just, I can't touch that.
Speaker 3 00:21:02 I mean, I think you hit on it. It is absolutely sacred. You know, in 2015, 2016, I was doing a project with the us Institute of peace. And that project required me to survey certain groups of students in South Asia. And one of those groups was in Boston and I surveyed hundreds of young, South Asian men, um, students, college students who were facing all kinds of local issues like unemployment and state violence and poverty, and I'm going to get so many things and when they were surveyed, but what do you think is the greatest issue facing the Muslim community? I really expected. I mean, Kashmir is right there. India's at the border, right? Like there's a rounded by threats in different ways. You've got Al-Qaeda and ISIS, even the threatened civilian populations there. And they said Israel, they said, Israel, Palestine is the greatest concern to all of us, to these 18 year old boys in Southern Punjab who might not ever leave that region.
Speaker 3 00:21:56 And the reason for that is because it is the sacred is because <inaudible> is so sacred to Muslims globally. I mean, for us, it's like the second most sacred place in the religion. And after Mecca it's AXA, and then that's it like, those are our two Holy spaces. And so it is absolutely a sacred obligation to defend oxide, to defend the Palestinians who represent style, who represents the Muslim right over that space. But you know, at the same time, what's really complicated about the activism around it. And I've written about this a number of times, and it's complicated and hypocritical is that we've been charged with faith, washing this issue when the issue has always been about faith. My only connection to that region is my faith. I have no other connection to it. How do I not faith wash it? Every Muslim has ever faith washed it.
Speaker 3 00:22:43 We've grown up in the faith washing. And as you know how it is, we grew up with every conference, every fundraiser, you know, Palestine, Palestine, Palestine, a couple of years ago, isn't to put out a statement when they disinvited, which a hot deli, another member saying that, you know, Probidy S anti-Israel, this was like a sixth pillar for us of Islam, like making it part of the creed. So at the same time, BDS activists say, no, it's a completely secular issue. It's a human rights issue, which yes it is, but you can't detract our passion around. It is absolutely because of the faith. But what's weird to me is how we've managed while preserving our faith connection to the land, to put blinders on. So we don't want to see that same connection for Jews. That's really been the issue. And I think it happens in both the communities. I think both the communities feel like they have exclusive rights to this space. It's exclusively Holy to our communities. And that's where the problem lies.
Speaker 1 00:23:38 I had never really thought about that paradox of faith washing, but the accusation of faith washing that when we do Muslim Jewish engagement, which talks through about this conflict, that the accusation of faith washing is you're making a political conflict into a religious conflict, but you're basically arguing. The only reason I have any connection to this at all is because of my faith. So that's my point of origin that may not be true for Israelis and Palestinians, but it might be more true for American Muslims. And what of course complicates a little bit is that the connection that American Jews have to Israel is not exclusively through quote unquote faith because our community actually scores the lowest on indexes of faith. It's actually about this. People had connection. This sense of this is our people. So
Speaker 3 00:24:16 I have decided though that that is actually a religion. So to me, that is a phase unto itself.
Speaker 1 00:24:22 Yeah, I think that's probably right. I think that the dichotomy between faith and people had is probably overblown. What about you? Do you see this?
Speaker 2 00:24:28 I think it's such a central theme to our collective religious identity. And I think there was some anxiety about compromising, compromising that in any way or looking at it through any other lens than all or nothing, because it is so central to identity as Muslims and as Muslims, we are going through an identity crisis. In some ways the illogically politically socially civically, we're going through so much upheaval that this issue, I think acts as a sort of unifying energy within the Muslim community. And of course it's all about the religious element because you would take that out then again, the question becomes, why does this space occupy so much time and energy in the Muslim conscience when we have so many other conflicts going on and it's because of the religious and the sacred and our attachment to that,
Speaker 3 00:25:22 You know, one of the criticisms I've seen, not even a criticism, I almost kind of see it as like this painful cry. I've seen this on and off over the last five, six years since MLI begun, is people saying that, you know, there's already so much that divides the Muslim community. This was the one thing we all had solidarity on and now that's gone to, you guys took it away, MLI took it away. And I think that's why it's been a great source of pain for a lot of people. That was the one thing we all thought we could agree on. But the crazy thing is we kind of all still agree on like the foundation of what we hope the outcome is on these issues. Just the methodology is what we differ.
Speaker 1 00:25:56 And also isn't that a mythology too. I mean, it's probably not true that this was the only issue that was so divisive in the Muslim American community. It was just probably the place where people could park their divisions. And there are a huge political divide. There are racial divides, which I've learned from MLS.
Speaker 3 00:26:10 No, no, no, no, but that's what I'm saying. That's exactly right. Is that we had all the different divides, but this was the one issue that didn't divide us. It was the non-negotiable right. It was non-negotiable the line that I'm not antisemitic when I'm anti Zionist. That was absolutely thoroughly accepted, acceptable, taught to us. You know, that's what we believed. And no matter what the racial background, the socioeconomic status people really felt that we are all on the same page there that you do not engage Zionist or Zionism in any way. You do not normalize because there's so much other stuff that already divides us. I think for all practical purposes, that was true in us. When did you say that? I would say before MLI that was very true. And actually, maybe Emily was more of an organized thing. I'm sure it was true in smaller ways too. I mean, well, before MLI, there were Muslim organizations and like there were Muslim schools. I know that work with the ADL ADL will provide training and other like local Muslim organization that would work with the AJC, but it just, wasn't an ongoing programming that was announced and formalized. It was kind of like informal relations.
Speaker 1 00:27:09 And you could basically segment out the pieces of ADL and AJC in which they were pro-Israel or Zionist organizations and say, well, we're not coming in through the front door. And ally was we're going to come in through the front door. And I think that was one of the things that was so powerful about those conversations continues to be is we're not doing Judaism or Islam, one Oh one, you know, read some books. The things that we're going to talk about are the issues of difference. And I think the place where I don't want to say the critics are right, but the critics are tuned to something is if the product of MLI is that Jews are less passionate about Israel because they want to build relationships with other people who don't particularly like Israel or Muslims are less passionate about being pro-Palestinian because they want to build relationships with Jews.
Speaker 1 00:27:54 Then I get that risk, then their right to point to the risk. You're not just talking about something where we don't want to broke any compromise. You're potentially becoming less passionate about this. Cause I don't think I really ever saw that at MLI. It's not like people came in who were passionate as being pro Palestinian, who said, I want to throw that away. But they did say I still want to build relationships with people who describe themselves as pro Israel. And the only way to do that is to actually talk to them as opposed to thinking that they're my existential enemy on a hundred percent of the issues when it may only be on a smaller person.
Speaker 3 00:28:26 I mean, the thing is that the risk is assumed by both communities. Then, I mean, the way you just stated at that Jews who engage in this program with us, that they might become slightly less passionate about being pro scientist. I mean like the risk is shared. What's always been strange to me. And I think it really comes from a place of feeling disempowered, at least in the Muslim community, just feeling like we have been powerless on the issue of Israel, Palestine, we have no influence over policy or politics on this issue. And this just adds to the feeling of powerlessness. But my challenge to that is if you think we're giving something up by doing this, don't you think that's happening on the other side too? Don't you think? AJC and ADL and Shalom Hartman that they're also giving up something they're signaling something to their communities that were willing to compromise in some way to engage with these people that maybe most of our community would not be happy with us doing. They're also giving something up too. I don't know why it's not seen like that. I think also this is one of the issues that fanaticism was welcomed, not just within the Muslim community, but like outside the Muslim community, being fanatical about this issue was celebrated. And there was like no degrees of separation. At some point, I remember like being criticized for buying Starbucks because I'm supporting a Howard Schultz. Who's a Zionist who supports Israel. So the degrees of separation are obliterated when it comes to this issue. I mean, if I
Speaker 2 00:29:42 Buy Starbucks, it's as good as being hurting a Palestinian shooting, a Palestinian like that's the equation that was being sort of put in our heads. So to actually sit and engage in dialogue, well, you've just removed the degrees of separation. Now you're like practically complicit in the worst crimes that the Israeli government has committed against Palestinian. So I think that's part of why people are so incensed in some ways is because they don't make a distinction between an action and the consequence, right? If buying Sabra hummus was problematic, then, Oh my God, what have we done? I mean, listen, the last month, I think somebody tweeted at me that I've Palestinian blood on my hands. I mean, it's absurd. It's absurd to make that sort of correlation is just it's. It's part of the reason you see so much venom.
Speaker 1 00:30:28 So two things are on our docket as we go forward. On one hand trumping out of office takes away this big symbolic presence in terms of anti Muslim rhetoric, ostensibly, by removing that two things could happen. One is okay, well, we don't have to worry about this anymore. And the other is that some of the stuff that's been burgeoning below the surface, and certainly the tensions between the progressive wing of the democratic party and the less progressive wing of democratic parties are now materializing because they don't have a shared enemy in Trump, these same battles that took place within MLI reflect those dynamics. I gotta tell you, I'm still pretty nervous about the resiliency of these relationships between Muslims and Jews, even in a post-Trump era. I'm quite nervous about it because like we'll stand together when there's a mosque shooting, God forbid, and you'll stand with us when there's a synagogue shooting, God forbid, and we'll show up at airports together to protest the Muslim ban absent that I'm nervous that these worldviews start to push against each other about how Muslim Jewish relationships should actually happen when you don't have an emergency to respond to.
Speaker 1 00:31:31 It creates a very different type of pressure. So what do you think we need to do to really continue to build muscle, to build resiliency in these relationships? There's still going to be things that happen in Israel, Palestine that are gonna trigger animosity on different sectors of our community. What do you think we need to do now do differently, do more of absent, the quote unquote common enemy theory. I'm making this work.
Speaker 2 00:31:50 I think the ball's already started rolling and there's no going back. I mean, Muslim Jewish relations was inevitable. The only thing that Trump did is it sort of accelerated what was going to happen to any way. We are natural allies and we have common interests. I think what needs to happen now is that we have to move beyond that, just the interface and the breaking, the bread and the contact theory and all that. And start having conversations around narrative and ultimately conversations about mutual interests and influence and public policy and politics. So I feel like we're on the right trajectory. I'm not as nervous as you are. I think if anything, people have discovered how valuable these relationships are and how necessary and indispensable that there is no going back now. Yeah. I don't really share a actually your concern either or you do. And the reason is that Trump is just a,
Speaker 3 00:32:40 Of a much bigger problem in this country. He's a symbol of this white supremacy, white nationalism that has been bubbling under the surface for a very long time. And he just popped through the surface. Basically, that's not going away any time. I mean, there will be another Trump and he'll be smarter than this one, but he will stand for the same kinds of principles. And I think the ADL like the Southern poverty law center, they've been tracking the growth and white supremacist movements for years. And we have seen, especially an exponential growth since Obama was elected. So I don't think the organizations, leaders, or communities are certainly going to be like, Oh, it's like saying that, Oh, we have a black president. There's no more racism anymore. What's happened now, in fact, I think is that people who didn't see the problem in their face now suddenly recognize what a big problem they are, how threatened our communities, how close we are, all of us are to the edge.
Speaker 3 00:33:31 And I think many of us are coming out of these last four years, realizing that democracy is not as safe as we thought it was that our religious rights and our religious communities are not as safe as maybe we thought they were. And we have a lot of work to do to make it safe for our kids and future generations, because I'm afraid for the next Trump it's going to happen. There's a segment of the GOP that has tapped into this power, this, whatever, this resentment, whatever it is. And it's against both of our communities, you can not forget the Jews will not replace us. Those images that we saw. I couldn't imagine seeing that 10, 15 years ago. So I think there's going to be, unfortunately, because all that is not going away in some ways that we realize we have to stick together on these issues. And when things bubble up in Israel, Palestine, as they will, how are we supposed to have an impact anywhere around the world, if we can't even have an impact to protect ourselves here, if I'm not protected here, I'm not going to be able to do anything for anybody overseas anyway. So I think we really have to start focusing on making America safer, all of that.
Speaker 1 00:34:29 Yeah. And you remember one of the lines we've used a lot in MLI is that there's a unique possibility for a kind of reconciliation between Jews and Muslims or conciliation between Jews and Muslims in America in ways that aren't really possible anywhere else in the world. And that creates a sense of urgency on all of us, uh, to take responsibility for that. So thank you both for being on the show this week. <inaudible> thanks for joining us. And thanks to all of you for listening to our show. Identity crisis is a product of the shell apartment Institute. It was produced this week by Devinsky Coleman and edited by Alex Dylan with support as well from Mary Miller. Our music is provided by so-called to learn more about the Shalom harmony Institute, visit us online Sholom apartment.org. We'd love to know what you think about the show you can rate and review us on iTunes to help more people find it. And you can write to us as
[email protected]. You can subscribe to our show in the Apple podcast app, Spotify, SoundCloud, audible, and everywhere else. Podcasts are available. See you next week, listening.
Speaker 4 00:35:21 Yeah.
